Curse

The Drunkard · Dec 03, 2009, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by jshrimp3

If you're playing to be the best and the richest, then guess what?

Stop. The point of my post was that I've made a ridiculous sum of money
. I'm not trying to get a collection of r7 weps, max ztitle, and wave my epeen around- I want to max out my HoM so that I when I buy GW2 (if they get their act together) I won't miss out on anything. Exploiting SF has pretty much done that from me, aside from GWAMM.

Since no one else will say it, I'll be the egotistical jerk; any game that gives you an invinicbility skill with a high damage output destroys the value of playing it. Why play a game where you can use one skill to pretty much get anything you want in a relativly short period of time? I don't want everything to be handed to me on a silver plate, I want a challenge. When the devs start balancing the game around an invincibility skill and push you to play the build you know something's wrong. It's decisions like this that make players think "gee, this game is just another mindless grindfest. I think I'll go play another game."

Quote:

Originally Posted by jshrimp3

If you're going to respond to this by saying you're forced to use SF to make money faster because everyone else does, then see above.

I'm not forced to do anything, if I don't want to invest my time in getting another shiny i'll stop. Anet has pissed on many farm builds in the past, and yet they don't want to fix this one. There's plenty of reasons why they should, but they won't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jshrimp3

As for how do you make money in this situation without SF, I've made 1000k in the past 5 weeks without SF.

I'd love to hear your method. Since you aren't competitive that shouldn't be a problem, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Paladin X

But still, perma Shadow Form shouldn't be nerfed. Who is going to tank in the most difficult dungeons and areas in the game?

If SF were to be completly removed from the game, i'd wager that Either obby flesh or SB would take its place.

pumpkin pie · Dec 03, 2009, 03:35 AM // 03:35

if arena net set a fix value for ecto, all this qq will stop

KageNoShi · Dec 03, 2009, 04:27 AM // 04:27

No then people will QQ about something else. Everyone just needs to learn to go with the flow and not care about ectos and stuff. Its just a game after all.

Bryant Again · Dec 03, 2009, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

I've already established that a few pages ago actually. That me does not speak for the entire population of the Guild Wars universe, there could be lots more who don't know how to use SF build.

good example of players who qq about skills is thread like this, out of the blue, a skills that my necro have been using for ages, all of a sudden, just because players only now realize its usage and BAM! everyone uses it, then BAM! ITS OVER POWERED. SF is the same thing, if nobody notices its usefulness its not over powered, when lots of player uses it and lots who can't use it gets jealous BAM ITS OVER POWERED. same story.

When determining balance, it's hard to evaluate if something is simply effective through good play and player skill or if it's effective because the skill is imbalanced to the side of over-effectiveness. In the thread you linked we see just that: we see players debating on whether the skill itself is OP or if it's simply a good skill that can be used to a good effect.

"If nobody notices its usefulness it's not overpowered"? That's possibly the most interesting variant of the "don't like; don't use" argument I've ever seen. Based upon that logic, if there was a secret and easy-to-do exploit that gave you five trillion gold and a full HoM, it wouldn't be a problem and shouldn't require a fix. Regardless, this is a pretty good reason why you don't obtain balancing choices from people who are completely new and/or oblivious to the going-ons in the game. And ignoring problems doesn't erase them.

Arkantos · Dec 03, 2009, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

I've already established that a few pages ago actually. That me does not speak for the entire population of the Guild Wars universe, there could be lots more who don't know how to use SF build.

good example of players who qq about skills is thread like this, out of the blue, a skills that my necro have been using for ages, all of a sudden, just because players only now realize its usage and BAM! everyone uses it, then BAM! ITS OVER POWERED. SF is the same thing, if nobody notices its usefulness its not over powered, when lots of player uses it and lots who can't use it gets jealous BAM ITS OVER POWERED. same story.

An overpowered skill is an overpowered skill, regardless of how many people use it. Of course if nobody knows about how useful it is, it's not going to be a problem, but it's still overpowered.

Vazze · Dec 03, 2009, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

An overpowered skill is an overpowered skill, regardless of how many people use it. Of course if nobody knows about how useful it is, it's not going to be a problem, but it's still overpowered.

Haha, how true. I have not been here from the beginning but I don't think there was ever a moment in the history of GW when monks were the best healers. But this did not seem to bother neither the players nor the devs. xD Actually a few months ago there were a few weeks when monks could maintain dual spirit e-management....that was nerfed so quick

.

w00t! · Dec 03, 2009, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

if arena net set a fix value for ecto, all this qq will stop

No, it's not about money, it's about gameplay. IMHO SF, just like Ursan, crossed the line when it became the de facto build for defeating Elite missions.

SF, 55, and any other SOLO build is just fine in my book, as your farming doesn't affect me. But when it becomes the only build you can run to form a TEAM in UW or FoW, then something's gone amiss.

jshrimp3 · Dec 03, 2009, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Stop. The point of my post was that I've made a ridiculous sum of money
. I'm not trying to get a collection of r7 weps, max ztitle, and wave my epeen around- I want to max out my HoM so that I when I buy GW2 (if they get their act together) I won't miss out on anything. Exploiting SF has pretty much done that from me, aside from GWAMM.

Since no one else will say it, I'll be the egotistical jerk; any game that gives you an invinicbility skill with a high damage output destroys the value of playing it. Why play a game where you can use one skill to pretty much get anything you want in a relativly short period of time? I don't want everything to be handed to me on a silver plate, I want a challenge. When the devs start balancing the game around an invincibility skill and push you to play the build you know something's wrong. It's decisions like this that make players think "gee, this game is just another mindless grindfest. I think I'll go play another game."

You want a challenge? Or at least a bit more of a challenge? Then stop using SF. I'm sorry to repeat the overused and usually stupid argument of "if you don't like it then don't use it" but in this case it helps. If you don't like the fact that everything seems too easy with SF, then why are you using SF? If it's because you're trying to max out your HoM, then you have to pick if you want a challenge or you want the most efficient way to pull that off. Those 2 are rarely going to be equal, in any game or really any facet of life. Make a challenge by limiting yourself from using the most efficient builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

I'd love to hear your method. Since you aren't competitive that shouldn't be a problem, right?

It's nothing special. The majority of it is through day trading and the like. Well I started playing up again during Halloween, so I made a bunch of money trading the event items. Those are the kind of items that you can find vary wildly in price, so you pick up some ToT stacks for super cheap, and sell them for more than they're worth. I've kept up doing the same with ectos. Also a couple times I bought gems, did a couple mini-DoA runs with friends to make a few armbraces and sold them for profit. Also I had a crap ton of excess skill points across my characters, so I bought dust/feathers on the cheap and sold probably 150 to 200 BUs, making about 1k profit on each. Add in Nicholas on a weekly basis (I didn't even do it every week, was too lazy to do the Island Guardian one) and 1000k in the past 5 weeks isn't unreasonable at all. If you break it down it's less than 30k a day.

Take advantage of fluctuations in price, and variance among buyers and sellers. If you sit in Kamadan and just pay attention you'll find people selling ectos for as much as 18e=100k though it's uncommon. Snatch that up, sell them at 16e=100k and you just made 12k or so. Every little bit adds up.

Bryant Again · Dec 03, 2009, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

An overpowered skill is an overpowered skill, regardless of how many people use it. Of course if nobody knows about how useful it is, it's not going to be a problem, but it's still overpowered.

Anyone remember how Oblivion earned it's M rating?

Through a third party change to the game, you could make the women be topless if you took off their armor. Without the mod, however, the women would be clothed. Even though you'd have to go out of your way to do so, Oblivion still earned an M rating because of it.

Not as relevant of an example as I'd like, it's still something to keep in mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jshrimp3

You want a challenge? Or at least a bit more of a challenge? Then stop using SF. I'm sorry to repeat the overused and usually stupid argument of "if you don't like it then don't use it" but in this case it helps.

Finding challenge, and to the same extent balance, should not be about how many hands you can tie behind your back.

pumpkin pie · Dec 03, 2009, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

An overpowered skill is an overpowered skill, regardless of how many people use it. Of course if nobody knows about how useful it is, it's not going to be a problem, but it's still overpowered.

true. but is SF over powered?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

When determining balance, it's hard to evaluate if something is simply effective through good play and player skill or if it's effective because the skill is imbalanced to the side of over-effectiveness. In the thread you linked we see just that: we see players debating on whether the skill itself is OP or if it's simply a good skill that can be used to a good effect.

"If nobody notices its usefulness it's not overpowered"? That's possibly the most interesting variant of the "don't like; don't use" argument I've ever seen. Based upon that logic, if there was a secret and easy-to-do exploit that gave you five trillion gold and a full HoM, it wouldn't be a problem and shouldn't require a fix. Regardless, this is a pretty good reason why you don't obtain balancing choices from people who are completely new and/or oblivious to the going-ons in the game. And ignoring problems doesn't erase them.

I kinda understand what you are saying there, but when I say "if nobody notices its usefulness it;s not overpowered" its based on actual experience, i remember posting my MoP, OoP, SS build here before (if not mistaken) no one even care to read the thread. but now suddenly its "deemed" overpowered. it has nothing to do with "don't like, don't use".

Infact there is a secret and easy-to-do exploit that gives exploiters just what you mention, but it is not being fix =HACKERS!

Quote:

Originally Posted by w00t!

No, it's not about money, it's about gameplay. IMHO SF, just like Ursan, crossed the line when it became the de facto build for defeating Elite missions.

SF, 55, and any other SOLO build is just fine in my book, as your farming doesn't affect me. But when it becomes the only build you can run to form a TEAM in UW or FoW, then something's gone amiss.

are you sure its not because of gold? if ectos were 5gold per, you think players would care if sf could quick clear the underworld? or where ever?

If I have a build that could kill Juvenile Termites by one single button, you think players would care?

Bryant Again · Dec 03, 2009, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

true. but is SF over powered?

It leads to "grate successs!" without the effort. That success should only be achieved through a good and proper knowledge of the game, and through good play.

SF isn't alone in providing this, however. ANet has a lot to do before they reach that peak.

manitoba1073 · Dec 03, 2009, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by w00t!

No, it's not about money, it's about gameplay. IMHO SF, just like Ursan, crossed the line when it became the de facto build for defeating Elite missions.

SF, 55, and any other SOLO build is just fine in my book, as your farming doesn't affect me. But when it becomes the only build you can run to form a TEAM in UW or FoW, then something's gone amiss.

Orly now, Since when does entering UW,FoW or any other place has a pop up that says you must have SF to enter this area. It doesnt. SO once again nice BS exxageration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

30% yeah , 95% of them arent. Yeah see ?, i can throw random % too. You are still wondering about counter SF or that ppl that agrees with the change of that skill are crying or dont know how to counter it ( let me put this easy for you , i didnt say NERF , got it ? ) when it has nothing to do with that.
Please , keep making false assumptions , hatred of SF ? hahahaha ! when did i say that i dont USE it ? or that i dont ABUSE it for farming right now ?. You are clueless pal and that feeling is making you insult me .
No is not , never was , its a random BS that can be used for ANYTHING.
Oh you just said you smell . Completly mistaken again , wanting SF to be nerfed and agree that a complete change/rework on SF is fair is not the same thing but ofc there will be trolls ( not you ) that will call anyone QQer.
Listening to : Rolling Stones . Tiiiiiime .... is on my side , yes it is !

FUnny I dont remember saying anything at all about you not using or abusing it.
No its your exaggerations of the number of skills that affect SF is what is showing the ignorance, As thats the only way those that hate SF can do to make it look bad. But heres an idea actually go and count the number of skills that can affect SF then come back with ur BS claim of 95% which youve claimed more than once.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

And exactly how many of those skills do monsters have in order to stop permasins from stomping all over elite areas/dungeons?

More than you realize that they do.

isildorbiafra · Dec 03, 2009, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Is this bullshit discussion still going on? Anet get on with it and please nerf the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing skill allready!

Tenebrae · Dec 03, 2009, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

FUnny I dont remember saying anything at all about you not using or abusing it.

No , you just made false assumptions about me wanting a nerf or me hating SF when i do use it , wich is absurd .

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

No its your exaggerations of the number of skills that affect SF is what is showing the ignorance, As thats the only way those that hate SF can do to make it look bad. But heres an idea actually go and count the number of skills that can affect SF then come back with ur BS claim of 95% which youve claimed more than once.

My exagerations ? oh cut the BS please. Stats and Facts :
-Enchantments = 246 , SF is only ONE of them
-Skills that remove in some way enchantments = 36 ( less than 20% of em )
-Skills that CAN remove SF = 10
-Skills that CAN remove SF unconditionally of the 10 above = 4
-Interrupting skills/signets to break the combo = 4 ( all mesmers signets )
-Monster skills .... about 2-4 ? and most of them can be avoided with a cover enchant.

So being optimistic we have 18 skills in the game that are able to break SF combo or remove SF once its on ..... and now you say that number is about 30% ? . Lets add traps or untargeted spells because they "affect" in some way SF users ..... ok , maybe they are 30 ? 40 ?.
There are 468 spells in this game ( not counting attack skills , signets bla bla ) ... and skills that work/break SF combo are LESS than 10% of them. Now i ask you , PLEASE enlighten us , from where does your 30% come from ? i explained my % , now its your turn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

More than you realize that they do.

[/QUOTE]
Oh yeah , still waiting for your explanations . Now that you are into it , please tell us wich are they and how they succesfully counter SF sins to do all their stuff .....

oh wait ... guess not

rabwatt · Dec 03, 2009, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by jshrimp3

And if SF disappears, there will be some other gimmick. It may not be as effective, but there's always a best way to do things. That's unavoidable, as someone said before you can't make everything perfectly equal. Does it really matter exactly what the details are? You'll go for whatever gimmick is the most effective, Ursan, SF, etc. in an attempt to accumulate the most "status." And guess what? If you have enough people running the same gimmick in the same area, the price of items you can get in that area will go down. It's simple supply and demand, where demand is relatively constant.

Once again, everyone who's arguing against SF has the mindset that PvE is competitive, you versus everyone else in a race to the top of the money pile. And that's not necessarily what it is.

Totally agree m8,
But Im actually looking forward to the change..... time for something different
Nothing against SF personally... just its been about for a while so it will be good for a new way of "being invincible" :-)

Oh.. and if anybody is scared of the change... dont worry... head off to wiki and Im sure they will have the new solution for you.

Gun Pierson · Dec 03, 2009, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Stats and Facts :
-Enchantments = 246 , SF is only ONE of them
-Skills that remove in some way enchantments = 36 ( less than 20% of em )
-Skills that CAN remove SF = 10
-Skills that CAN remove SF unconditionally of the 10 above = 4
-Interrupting skills/signets to break the combo = 4 ( all mesmers signets )
-Monster skills .... about 2-4 ? and most of them can be avoided with a cover enchant.

So being optimistic we have 18 skills in the game that are able to break SF combo or remove SF once its on .....

You basically prooved that SF is not 100% invulnerability and so it can not be categorised as a godmode skill. Even if there was only one skill in the game that can end it, it means it's not godmode and can be countered. Which is not the case for a typical godmode that is triggered by a cheatcode or a power up (FPS) etc.

Also, you talk about a cover enchantment...which is something the average player doesn't know about.

So at best, you can say that SF can have godmode characteristics when the conditions are right and in the hands of 'skilled' players.

Pumpkin Pie at least had the decency to admit she can't use it and I suspect the majority of the playerbase can't use it efficiently either. Sure they can kill some raptors, but tank and spank in the UW is something else.

isildorbiafra · Dec 03, 2009, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

You basically prooved that SF is not 100% invulnerability and so it can not be categorised as a godmode skill. Even if there was only one skill in the game that can end it, it means it's not godmode and can be countered. Which is not the case for a typical godmode that is triggered by a cheatcode or a power up (FPS) etc.

Also, you talk about a cover enchantment...which is something the average player doesn't know about.

So at best, you can say that SF can have godmode characteristics when the conditions are right and in the hands of 'skilled' players.

Pumpkin Pie at least had the decency to admit she can't use it and I suspect the majority of the playerbase can't use it efficiently either. Sure they can kill some raptors, but tank and spank in the UW is something else.

With all due respect; this is trash talk. UWSC takes no skill whatsoever. With all the material available on youtube a chimp can SC the UW.

Gun Pierson · Dec 03, 2009, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by isildorbiafra

With all due respect; this is trash talk. UWSC takes no skill whatsoever. With all the material available on youtube a chimp can SC the UW.

Watching a vid on youtube or doing it yourself is a big difference. It's the process of learning and practice. Once you have mastered it, it looks like it requires no skill.

I've seen enough permas hit the dirt in UW to know your argument is wrong.

isildorbiafra · Dec 03, 2009, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Mastering UWSC takes no more than 1 day of practice. Its not rocket science; hence all scrubs use it! Imo your giving it to much credit; or perhaps your just lacking in ability manneke pis.

Bryant Again · Dec 03, 2009, 11:53 AM // 11:53

I don't think anything we've talked about on this forum has largely been in regards to the "average player" - more about what that average player will come to understand when he's no longer average.

The major appeal of a widespread farming gimmick is it's ease of use and effectiveness, and if SF didn't provide well in both of these regards then we wouldn't be having this thread. SF delivers some pretty "greatt successs!" and the skill required for it doesn't match that.